Comments on: Does capitalism lead to democracy? http://devonwhittle.com/2008/08/10/does-capitalism-lead-to-democracy/ International law and other catastrophes Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:41:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: devonwhittle http://devonwhittle.com/2008/08/10/does-capitalism-lead-to-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-270 devonwhittle Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:01:50 +0000 http://www.james5.org/?p=830#comment-270 Good points RA, China certainly has made progress in terms of its human rights. I guess the debate is how much more progress will be made, and the time it will take. I'm not well read on this, but I also wonder about democracies historically - is the causal link demonstrated between rising middle class and demands for democracy? Or do rich middle classes care more about their own safety/position/wealth then the human rights of poor farmers? Also, China certainly seems to have done a good job of indoctrinating a substantial portion of their population to praise the government - just listen to the Beijing vox pops on pollution! It appears to me that constructive criticism isn't a strong part of the culture yet (and the US seems to be slipping on this point too), which makes it harder to stand up for rights against the government. Good points RA, China certainly has made progress in terms of its human rights.

I guess the debate is how much more progress will be made, and the time it will take.

I’m not well read on this, but I also wonder about democracies historically – is the causal link demonstrated between rising middle class and demands for democracy? Or do rich middle classes care more about their own safety/position/wealth then the human rights of poor farmers? Also, China certainly seems to have done a good job of indoctrinating a substantial portion of their population to praise the government – just listen to the Beijing vox pops on pollution! It appears to me that constructive criticism isn’t a strong part of the culture yet (and the US seems to be slipping on this point too), which makes it harder to stand up for rights against the government.

]]> By: Random African http://devonwhittle.com/2008/08/10/does-capitalism-lead-to-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-271 Random African Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:29:23 +0000 http://www.james5.org/?p=830#comment-271 Well, it may take a while. Think about Singapore. But then again, that depends on the criteria we use to judge "democracy". As far as China having done a good job of indoctrinating its populations, I wouldn't be so sure. Nationalist reflexes are the kind of things that government use to gain support and may well encourage but that's because people tend to have them. (I'm really not sure a democratic China would have a better attitude towards Tibet for instance). On the litterature, hmmm, i'm not exactly well read either but in recent times, I think the idea that growth leads to democracy in the short term has been debunked by people like Adam Przeworski. There is evidence that democratization is linked to crisis in Africa. And in historical times, well, it has been longer processes of franchise extension, hasn't it ? The middle class may not care for poor peasants but by caring for themselves and defining rights they own, poor peasants are either included or include themselves. Well, it may take a while. Think about Singapore. But then again, that depends on the criteria we use to judge “democracy”.

As far as China having done a good job of indoctrinating its populations, I wouldn’t be so sure. Nationalist reflexes are the kind of things that government use to gain support and may well encourage but that’s because people tend to have them. (I’m really not sure a democratic China would have a better attitude towards Tibet for instance).

On the litterature, hmmm, i’m not exactly well read either but in recent times, I think the idea that growth leads to democracy in the short term has been debunked by people like Adam Przeworski. There is evidence that democratization is linked to crisis in Africa. And in historical times, well, it has been longer processes of franchise extension, hasn’t it ? The middle class may not care for poor peasants but by caring for themselves and defining rights they own, poor peasants are either included or include themselves.

]]> By: Random African http://devonwhittle.com/2008/08/10/does-capitalism-lead-to-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-269 Random African Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:11:26 +0000 http://www.james5.org/?p=830#comment-269 Hmmm.. He may be a bit dramatic. Is China really as authoritarian as it was 20 or 30 years ago ? Is the intellectual sphere as controlled ? What do we make of the rise of civil rights lawyers ? And the fact that they get to stay alive ? Is the Chinese government more or less responsive to its own public opinion ? Would the PR efforts deployed domestically after the last earthquake or the intervention itself a sign of a government careful and conscious of that demanding middle class ? Hmmm.. He may be a bit dramatic.

Is China really as authoritarian as it was 20 or 30 years ago ? Is the intellectual sphere as controlled ? What do we make of the rise of civil rights lawyers ? And the fact that they get to stay alive ? Is the Chinese government more or less responsive to its own public opinion ? Would the PR efforts deployed domestically after the last earthquake or the intervention itself a sign of a government careful and conscious of that demanding middle class ?

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